Dangerous Stories, the book; Dangerous Stories, the Conference.
SS
I’m sitting here with Alan Hirsh, the national…international director of forge, national director of forge?
AH
No – I’m called a national director of Forge, but yeh…
SS
I understand you have just completed the manuscript for your next book
AH
Yeh – it been great, it’s been great doing it.
SS
At least you get a say in what the title of this next one s going to be.
AH
Well you can suggest it. I think we struggled with the other guys from last time [Book - Shaping of things to come] in trying to get down titles. But I think this one – Um, more primal dreams 1 and 2; but I think the subtitle will be a bit more technical. I like dangerous stories though.
SS
A number of people have said that that’s a great name for a summit, for the conference and we might chat about that in a second. Would you call this [the new book] a sequel to the “Shaping of things to come”
AH
Well in a way it is because it develops the ideas from ‘shaping’ – but it does it in a way that is different. So in other words it kinda like the shape book. What I try to do in there is to study what I call phenomenal Jesus movements of history, [like the] early church prior to the time of Constantine, who experience rapid, exponential, spontaneous growth. Where they grow from twenty five thousand to roughly twenty million in two hundred years, in spite of the fact that they don’t have all the things we ordinarily think about, like buildings, clergy, shick-a-shank youth groups, they didn’t even have the bible and their putting the bible together [as they go]. So how the hell did they do that?
And, of course, my other pet passion is a very modern one, but in fact is a far more phenomenal movement in the Chinese phenomenon. Which actually…???…And at the time there were estimated about two million Christians in China; and China had pretty well established Christianity; to be colonized for a number of hundred years, so it was very much a European form of ???, very much institutional. Two million of them at the time of the Cultural Revolution and then in the 1980’s we go in and discover their sixty million plus, now the estimation is around eighty million. Everything is a myth from them. I mean [persecution] kills all their leaders, takes all their buildings, it tells me that if you dare gather in groups I’m going to kill ya, [like what] persecution does. Yet they grow like mad – so what’s going on there.
And that’s what we’ve got here. I reckon….I want to drive into that mystery and find out what is going on there, how did they do that, and really answer the question.
SS
So would you say you have discovered similarities between the emerging church movement and the church in China.
AH
Wow that’s an interesting question. I find myself, my own journey has been less emphasis on the emerging church, [and] more on mission. What we’re looking at is a phenomenon tagged by say David Barrett, or the world Christian encyclopedia, which has become the standard research text, who call it the new apostolics, or the new apostolic movements , Um - much bigger framework. I don’t think the emerging church has, as we understand it in say America …???
What we’re looking at here is massive transformational of movements in history. There are elements of this in the west, but I think there’s got to be a disparate need, they’re yet to begin to converse with each other. [For example] I was in the US recently, right, and the US discovered that you the emergent in one corner where they talk about post modernity, worship, spirituality in the context of post modern tradition. Then you got in the other corner you got your missional church conferences – very high fulutant discussion, very technical about mission and missional churches. It’s a great discussion, but it’s very much mainstream churches, very intellectual. Then you got in the other corner a very interesting group of people, I’ve spoken about them calling them the organic church movement, you know Coles and for example house to house. I went to America and they don’t ever talk. They are desperate, they haven’t converged yet. And I reckon actually the three of them need to come together so that they can ask things from Australia, because we understand far more. We’re actually bringing those elements together, so we call it the Emerging Missional Church, don’t we?
SS
Yeh
AH
Where we’ve brought the emergent, the kinda discussion on the interpreting of spirituality and ???, into relationship with the missional stuff, but the mission stuff is the most important. I think in America ???
SS
I remember reading about a female blogger in the US, who went and heard you with Mike [Fost] in the US. It was quite interesting to observe the type of language she used to describe these ideas on emerging and missional church. Such concepts in her words were like a thunderbolt, like a revelation. She said she had never thought about putting the emerging church and mission together. And [yet] you guys [Forge] submerse at that paradigm. Which is quite, not ironic, but I mean that’s something I guess in Australia the conversation has naturally moved into that space and has been there for a year, if not a couple [of years].
AH
Oh no – I think its been, actually, you know I think back to say the founding of Forge and in fact Frosty [Mike Frost] is doing his thesis at the moment over in china, argh…actual fact…I was tempted very much to learn from the urban mission guys about Incarnational mission who were dealing with G.O Storm stuff, or particularly…???…at the time. I think mostly, mostly I think it’s been a missional moment, not really emergent. In fact I would say at this moment that emergent has emerged out of missional engagement over here [Australia] and not the other way around. You see the whole emergent movement in this country has failed. There is nowhere where it has actually succeeded. Do you know of any places?
SS
I’m kinda grinning because I’m thinking your average Richmond supporter [Aussie Rules] just won’t be interested [laugher] in lighting a few candles and watching a view high up for the pictures projected onto the wall into a cathedral somewhere.
Mate, can I ask about the book specifically. You were saying you were hoping it would be a little more focused on praxis. What does that mean for the average punter that might be interested in your book? What can they get out of it on a practical level?
AH
Perhaps if I state it another way, its not so much, Um, its more focused on how we translate what we learning from phenomenal movements. I’ve identified six elements in what I call missional DNA, or MDNA, which make up a phenomenon called Apostolic ???
I know I’m getting a bit technical with that, but what I tried to do was take a phenomenological approach of how things relate to each other if I was an outside observer without any preconceived understanding, like an alien kinda idea/ context. And what are the elements that are common to all phenomenal, exponential Jesus movements, and came up with five. So if I say it this way, this text is more prescriptive than really descriptive. It is prescribing a certain way forward. So what I try to do is translate that into the western context, given my keen interest in ???
And so it does give guidance to the practitioner and the leader and the strategist and probably piss a few academics off because it lacks the detail that their probably looking for in terms of the research, I’m just thinking the outcomes ???. So it is practical, but it still ??? issues, because a lot of it is paradigmatic. Looking at it actually from different paradigms, almost on every level from the way we conceive the church. And when you look at the Chinese phenomenon - and there are some weird spots here -everything that they ordinarily think of as church is totally looped on, absolutely looped. Mao Tse-tung ???, kills all their leaders, ???, all the external missionaries sent out on fear of death and they are left literally as a scattered flock under persecution. How did it grow like that? How can you grow from two million to eighty million in fifty years? In the most adverse circumstances, when everything external is removed from you – which is what we rely on most times. We rely on ??? still dominants our consciousness. We still rely on professional ministry class, a kinda gilded force, we’re reliant on professional Christians. We rely on, you know, we have seeker sensitive services, and these guys don’t have that – and yet they grow like mad. It is counter-intuitive to what we ordinarily think So it’s [the book] going to be [focused] at that paradigmatic level and then suggesting ways forward.
SS
So when do you anticipate it hitting the shelves, or hitting Amazon?
AH
It should be out somewhere between six and twelve months, that’s pretty vague, but I hoping no longer than 12 months. I hoping maybe at the beginning…???
SS
And I guess we can keep an eye on www.forge.org.au – there will be some kind of mention of it there.
AH
I’m actually developing a website based on some of the material of the book. Like I said there were five elements that I think provide us with a good profile ??? and to our own practices; and I’d like to develop that as a tool that people can test, what I call, missional fitness. Their communities can actually mirror what we see in these phenomenal movements. In actual fact there will be a www – I don’t have that kinda of site at the moment.
SS
Let me know and I’ll blog it.
AH
Thank you. And it will be in the book, it’ll be listed in the book, and Days of ??? and probably going to be called dangerous stories. Speaking of dangerous stories, in 25 words or less – quick plunge on the up coming summit.
AH
We felt very much to call people from all across Australia (and wherever) to come together perhaps for the first time in this country to really meet together and dream together and see what God does. Happening on the 1-3 of July. For us quite significant in terms of numbers. Its very hard in Australia to bring people together from cross the nation. Very ???
SS
Quite a bit place too
AH
It’s a big place too and so people have to travel very far away. We’re expecting five hundred people; so fantastic time, we’re looking forward to it.
SS
Well thanks for your time, I know you’ve been busy leading into the conference. Yeh, Dangerous stories the book and dangerous stories the conference. We look forward to seeing both. Thanks Mate.
AH
Chow
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